The Intersection of Innovation: Bitcoin Pizzas and the NFT Evolution

The intersection of innovation : Bitcoin Pizzas and the NFT Evolution

SPEAKERS

Nadja Bester

Greg Marlin (Founder of Idexo)

Elisabetta Alicino (Co- Founder of AIDEA)

Simon Mikolajczyk (Founder of MaisonDAO & xAiDRIP)

Yeah, thank you for having me. Looking forward to it.

All right, awesome. So sound soundcheck for you is also done so we know you're getting in the clear as well. Elisabetta Alicino. Elisabetta, I might be pronouncing your surname completely incorrectly. Apologies. Is the co-founder of AIDEA I'm again going to mispronounce it. I love the fact that it's AI and idea but I'm not quite sure how you would pronounce it. Elisabetta is the creative director, director and the founder of Brand Genesi, which is a brand building studio and the co-founder of AIDEA, a consulting company that offers AI workshops and support for businesses and corporate entities. She's also a speaker, a mentor, an advocate for women empowerment, and a pioneer in the Italian space for her work with AI image and content generation. Welcome. Happy to have you with us.

Ciao, ciao Nadja. Nice to be here with you today. Yes, you don't see it pretty well. Never mind. It was AIDEA. So it's perfect. Very glad to be here with you guys.

Wonderful. And then finally we have Simon Mikolajczyk. Simon we have you here. Simon Mikolajczyk, founder of MaisonDAO and xAiDRIP. Simon apologies, I knew today was going to be a difficult day with all the pronunciations. So Simon and if you are a longtime listener of the show, you will recognize that Simon has been on the show before. So Simon is a lifestyle entrepreneur with a background in the music and fashion industries. And with MaisonDAO and with xAiDRIP. He's focusing on building a digital web3 ecosystem for fashion designers and luxury brands, special tools and virtual spaces for events and exhibitions. MaisonDAO is a decentralized digital fashion brand and art tech collective. And xAiDRIP is an NFT subscription magazine and digital brand. Simon, good to have you with us again. How are you?

Thank you, thank you so much for your introduction. And it's amazing to be here again, with you and all the others. So I'm very happy to be here. And I'm very excited about the upcoming discussion.

Me as well. And I'm also holding all thumbs that we are not going to have any more tech issues. Now guys, I'm going to repeat myself in case you didn't hear me earlier. Tomorrow is a very big day for us and the web3 industry it is of course Bitcoin pizza day. And the significance of this is the fact that 14 years ago, someone bought two pizzas with $25 at the time for 10,000 Bitcoin. Now fast forward to today, we've had an NFT collection sold for $91 million, we've had a single artwork, NFT $69 million, something has clearly shifted. You know, I always say that we are the authors of history in the making. And we can see we can tell by the by these numbers, because these numbers don't lie. Starting with Bitcoin 14 years ago, clearly this is an industry and a technology that is to be reckoned with. But of course, technological advancement. And with that, also societal advancement, cultural advancement, those things don't stop with a technology. Now we have AI and of course, this is a storm that's just beginning. Soon we will have spatial computing to an extent that could very well redefine how we interact with the world, even just beyond our own bodies. So I want us to focus today on both the celebration of the fact that man we've come a really long way as well as okay, yes, we've come away but there's still a long way to go. So with that, thank you so much, guys for joining me. I'm going to start with the first question. If Bitcoin Pizza Day is this story of Oh, no, I should not have sold I should have huddled as opposed to, you know, a lot of other cryptocurrencies being Oh, no, I shouldn't have bought, I should have just kept away from it. I want to know, Greg, Simon, Elisabetta. What is your Bitcoin pizza story day? What is that moment where you didn't realize what the impact of these technologies were going to be? And you made a decision that you now look back on and go, Oh, man, if only I hadn't done that, or if only I had made that decision? Greg, let's start with you.

Yeah, absolutely. You can't worry about the ones that you lost, just worry about the ones that you're on the road to getting. Simon, what about you? What's your Bitcoin pizza story?

Yeah, I think we all have a story about the missing keys and how much money there was on there at the time might not have been so much, but today, it's worth quite a bit. Elisabetta, what about you? What's your Bitcoin pizza story day?

Well, my bitcoin pizza story day, it's very, it's an easy one. About five years ago, I had a client, which was cannot say, very much into Cryptos. And it wasn't that popular at the time, at least in the creative industry. It was before COVID and the guy wanted to pay some of our services for some branded services, he wanted to pay with Bitcoin, and I couldn't grasp actually the importance and the value maybe was 6 years ago, I couldn't grasp the value and importance and the whole story behind you know, the crypto and especially with Bitcoin, so I told him now just pay me with Euro, I really don't care about this stuff. And immediately after I understood the mistake, it was really a big mistake, big, big mistakes. Because, of course, apart from the financial value, it was me not totally not grasping that the industry was changing. So but somehow that is a mistake that brought me to understanding there was web3, then there were the Cryptos. And so I started studying, and that brought me to AI. So it was a big mistake, but somehow taught me a lot.

Yeah, I love that. I think I also went from super optimistic to grateful. So every time now that I see this adoption, I'm just grateful, as opposed to Yes, tomorrow, Blockchain is gonna eat the whole world. Yeah, it's also cool to see like our own evolutions and our own thinking and in this process. Elisabetta, what about you? What do you think? Is there a, let's say, a medium to long term future for NFTs or is this one of those short term things that's going to come and go?

Well, I agree with Simon, because at the very beginning, when actually after, for me, it was about with COVID I have discovered the technology and we work on the other side of the development we work on the actual delivering to the count to the client something you know, so we don't do the development we do the adoptions. And I agree with time on at the very beginning. There was a lot of excitement. I mean, it was like totally the future, you should have happened in six weeks than it was six months, then, of course, I am more cautious now. And I see that regular company, I mean, until there will be a mass adoption by even the smallest company or this company, you wouldn't expect. It won't be like, totally assumed, but I think it's a future it will take a longer than we expected. Because once you discover the space, once you discover what kind it can do, you know, from art to delivering auto ship 22, All the things that we know that NFT can do you think wow, this is this is the future, we're going to propose to all of our clients to do to work with without, but it takes there's some friction, it takes some time. And it takes some space, but I still believe it's the future. I mean, otherwise, what else? I mean, if this is not the future, what is the future?

I love that, what an amazing line? Absolutely. If not, what if not, there's one thing, Greg, so you are obviously heavily involved in the NFT space. So what are your thoughts as someone who has been so involved in a technology that actually very few people understand even when they think they understand it?

Yeah, so I got some really good news. You know, I get to see, obviously, with a Idexo, you know, real time what the interest in the market is, you know, how many people are coming to our website, how many people are signing up for the product, etc. So, you know, there was definitely a, you know, the space was pretty dead for a couple of years. And now in the last three, four months, it's completely changed. So there's a lot of interest, I'm seeing, like from every angle. So you know, that will eventually, you know, spread out to the rest of the market if it's not being seen, right now. Um, you know, I authored the agent, NFT standard draft, as you mentioned, and, you know, there I'm using cryptid NFT. So the NFTs are adding a value in terms of the ability to encrypt prompts that you use to set up an agent, and then you can trade them, you can list your NFT. And there's no way for the prompts to leak because they're encrypted so that only the owner of the NFT can decrypt them. And that's using a protocol called lit. So there's a lot of stuff that's happened during the bear market, for example, IP protocol that, you know, will really bring out some interesting use cases, what I'm doing with Idexo, that AI is I'm really focusing on kind of a new approach where, you know, because it's a product that's gonna appeal to a lot of people that are not even interested in crypto at all, they're just interested at what to use AI agents and workflows to do amazing things and don't need to know about crypto, they're able to get a lot of value first, and then, you know, kind of be introduced to the additional value of the NFT which is if they want to store you know, their work output their stored agents, their workflows in an encrypted way that is portable. So, you know, we offer not to get to the weeds too much. But we offer the ability to have, you know, privacy where everything works in your browser as a local database. But that's kind of limiting, because now you can only use that browser on that computer. So you know, you could use our centralized remote database account if you want, or you can use this on chain account and have total, you know, privacy and freedom. So I think that'll get some people, you know, wanting to know more about the crypto, you know, use case there. And I think I see that, like there's on the Idexo’s side, we're working on some really cool stuff, you know, physical, you know, redeemable NFTs. So I think the technology as other people said, you know, the technology is there, and it's not changing and I think, yeah, the visionaries in US saw Well, this is obviously going to change the market, but I think, yeah, as you as certain use cases roll out and people see the value, others will join and I think that will just continue to drive for the market.

I'm gonna ask a follow up question to that then because I think both of you touched on a very important point in the sense that, you know, especially Greg, as you said, so many people will want to come to the AI platform because AI is already something that they are familiar with, even if no I'll technically but they are familiar with it, thanks to open AI and all the products that came out of that, and continues to come out of that, of course. So there's not much understanding needed. But there's a lot of recognition from the average user that yes, AI is something that can benefit me that is going to improve whatever problem that I'm working through as a resource, as an autonomous agent, etc. Do you guys think that in order for web three, to have the kind of future in terms of the mass adoption that we had dreamed of? Would it need to be coupled with something like AI? So let's say another technology that people can adopt far more easily? And then web three works in the back end? Or do you think that there is still a fair chance that web three can stand on its own as we have been building towards any What about you? Let's start here. Because of course, you work with businesses, and as you said, you know, there's so much excitement in terms of introducing these options to clients, but then also recognizing that it is a bit early for a lot of people. And you know, a lot of work still needs to be done in order for you to easily be able to present those as options that you think there will come a time when web three will stand on its own two legs as a mass adopted technology? Or are we going to see that it's coupled with AI or similar technologies? And that's how it ends up in people's living rooms?

Well, I think they're both options. There is the business option there. The adoption by cooperation by brands by companies, and there is the as you said, the private person adoption, what I think what's really hindering a little bit the adoption of the web three is, it's not really that easy. Okay, it's not like going to charge putty and, and write it, please tell me this. And that, you know, it's much more difficult, of course, for people that are not so used with a totally new technology. So what I think and it is totally my two cents, okay? It's my opinion, and people over the, in the audience and your speaker might think different, I think that it would be a middle, a middle age, let's call it like that in which AI will help us help people health company, enter into the web tree. Once we are there, then we can use it, and it will stand on his two legs. But it takes a middle a middle ground in which the simplicity of the AI tools will lead us to the complexity of the web3. Because of course, let's say the web3 is not easy. It's a little bit complex. So I think there will be a middle ground and then once we more people getting into the web3, then it was sent on two legs.

Yeah, I think very much agree with you. And I hope that is ultimately the kind of future that we see. Simon being in the fashion space. Of course, we've seen so many of the big fashion brands adopt technologies, specifically NFTs, but also looking to web3 technologies, bringing, you know, people on board work in house. What are you seeing in terms of the fashion tech side of things? Do you think that NFTs or other web3 technologies will continue to dominate? Or do you think that newer technologies, let's say AI? And I would love to have some examples? If you have some of those? Do you think AI is something that's going to supersede the web3 tech in fashion?

I think in terms of what can be the next big thing and fashion. It's currently AI obviously and I'm even a part of the project were called the F word where we are building AI customization a personalization platform where designers even with no skills, like a no code, no code platform where people can design items designed clothes, and then means them on OpenSea right distributed them as NFTs. So obviously, from my perspective, this is very much on point and combination of these technologies. I wouldn't treat it separately combination and a good mix of these new technologies is something that that's yeah, that's the core part of the market right now. If you see the latest winners of the I recommend to do it. Winners of the Louis Vuitton awards. Yeah, they're awarding every year. The most innovative startups that can join as their portfolio right? They are investing in startups. You could see that most of them are basically combination of for AI and AI and, and web three, and on top of this sustainability, right. And for me, this is crucial part that, that I would like to tell our audience today that with AI as a tool, we can develop even better work through systems. And we can develop even better sustainability practices for companies and brands. And when you combine this all of this together, that's the future of fashion.

That's literally sounds like a very exciting future, I think it's going to be a different world for us, where we feel so much agency and ownership even just in our wardrobes. So, Greg, yes, web3 is amazing. Of course, we work in it every day. But then if you speak to someone who's not in web3, they typically don't have a lot of good things to say about it. But however, when you bring up AI, everyone is in love with it. So what are your thoughts on the relationship between these two technologies? And what we can expect from using them together in different industries in the future?

Yeah, that's a really interesting question. You know, I think obviously, they stand on their own, like you said, for different use cases. I think that, you know, specifically to NFTs, there's a really good fit in terms of composability. That's, you know, why how the standard to, you know, kind of make it easy for marketplaces to be offerings, kind of NFTs, and kind of understand how they work. But yeah, as you get into any, you know, there's a ton of people working on this. But as you get into the decentralized approaches, you know, there's, there's the fetch that AI kind of agent model, there's different decentralized systems just for running kind of model training. And there's thinking about, like, are we is coming out with EO computers. So there's sort of a lot of interesting stuff directly, and certainly, with CSCO, that AI is going to be integrating some of those technologies over time. So I guess there's, it's really like, you know, you're right, like AI has that kind of obvious use case and kind of mass market use case, that's, that's pretty easy for anyone to understand. And the web three is like, which, you know, which part? Are you kind of selling as the value that someone can easily understand? And then you kind of bring them into the fold of you kind of understanding the, the much bigger picture? And I guess, yeah, there's, if I could choose, I would say, you know, less, less kind of obvious rock bullets, you know, like the go to the retail market that really turns people off. You know, like, if we could have a little less of that, that would be helpful. But I understand that, you know, part of that kind of fun Mimi stuff is, is part of what attracts some people to crypto in the first place. So it's really tough. Whenever you have this kind of totally decentralized system, there's going to be people that are very different, and that's part of its power, but also first drawback. So I think, yeah, it's, I think, totally different use cases. And where they, where they do well, I guess, is where you want to have this kind of code is law, transparent, predictable. There's some really interesting stuff, by the way, going on. And just one last thing is when you're talking about, you know, zero knowledge proofs and provable computation, you know, that's really interesting, too, in terms of proving that, you know, the AI ran exactly as it was supposed to, you know, in a in a predictable and deterministic way, and then that can be controlled by a smart contract. So, really interesting crossovers, in terms of that.

Yeah, it reminds me of the concept of being a teenager. I mean, sometimes you're really nice and people like you, but there are other times when people just go, Oh, my God, can you just please grow up and not be a teenager anymore? So I guess in web three, we have the awesome aspects. And then we have the aspects where we say yeah, okay, we'd like for it to grow up a little bit. Greg, thanks so much for all those examples. So I want to of the of the development. I think there's so much going on, and it's really exciting to hear that, you know, even if these things don't make the news just yet because of course this is the whole thing with being in emerging tech is there's so much happening that is not making the news that it continues to go forward. And you know, you might only hear about it when it hits the media and oftentimes, depending on why you're in the space for this technology, it might be too late so you know, get involved as early as you can in whatever capacity so I want to ask the same then Simon, of you and Elisabetta, what are some of the examples of work that you are working on right now or projects that you've done recently that really just speaks to how these technologies are being used and might become standard in future for similar things? Simon, not really either one of you can go.

okay, I will jump in be happening, at least in the fashion space Supply Chain Management, I'm working on two or three examples where the journey for the item from production, right from actually not from production from sourcing the material to the production and then to the final customer. And I think this is not super sexy use case, right? Yeah, just having the storage of information where it was developed, you know, where the items are coming from. But in terms of us in the fashion industry, having been able to use the technologies, this is one of the most useful, right most useful example, how we can solve few issues that we have, we have tracing work provenance, we have sustainability jobs by using this compost system. There is collect ID, that's one of the companies and created by another one. And they're all building solutions, where you can have the NFT attached to the item in combination with other technology with NF sees, right? With the chips. When you when you have NFC chip with the NFT on it, then you can track the journey of the item from the consumption to the final customer and then to the resale. So I think this is like the one core example this is not super sexy, but I can guarantee that 95% of big brands right now are using are using it or preparing to, to use it, they're looking for the right solution to to enter and to digitalize all of this information and put it on books.

Yes, okay. We do kind of the same, as Simon was saying, because we work especially with the fashion the fashion industry, besides myself without having a project of modeling, AI models for agencies with cryptid prompts, as Simon was actually saying before, and that is, I think something that will explode in the next few months. As a designer as a brand. As a Brand what we have been doing in the last couple of years with NFT, it's besides lots of litigation, of course, it's trying to do in the what attach the NFT to the item based mainly in the fashion industry. So being clothes being accessories, that of course testify the production where it starts and where it ends. And but also what we are doing a lot as a designer, it's designed. So what we are combining, it's the Create, we are combined our products, what our client produce and what we produce. With AI that means doing virtual collections that mean doing lots of prototyping and testing for our clients. Which means websites which mean products, which mean also process. And that is where we're working with NFT, where we're working with AI is basically everywhere. We have totally shifted as an agency has to do as a company we have totally shifted our workflow. Comprehend from the beginning to the end, the interaction with AI, being in the process and being in the creativity. And personally, as a designer, I'm still in shock what AI can do. I mean as an artist also, I cannot still believe. I mean, I'm not that young. I'm not in my 20s. I'm in my 50s. And I cannot believe that we are living this incredible time. What we can do with AI on all grounds? I'm silly. No, I'm since shocked. But we have a lot of cases theory and case studies, especially with creativity.

Yeah, I mean, I think this is one of those times where we all should be having a lot of fun with these tools and these technologies, because it's really early and this, so many use cases that no one has even thought of, that's possible with these tools. So definitely invite all of you to take Elisabetta’s enthusiasm and yeah, go where you can add some AI to your life. So we are going to come to the end soon. Because I’m going to do a rapid fire round at the end in celebration of Bitcoin pizza day. So final question before we then move on to that guys. we've spoken a lot about adoption, and also the difficulties in terms of how complex these technologies are. And of course, you know, there's just so much happening in the world. And there's a lot happening in crypto that's pushing people away from this tech. So in terms of the adoption of NFTs and I mean here, I use the definition extremely broadly. It can be anything from PFPs, or art to provenance for fashion, or it could be real estate, or it could be membership and ticketing. And it could be any number of things. What do you think is missing? Or what needs to be focused on more for the adoption of NFTs to let's say, speed up a little bit? If that's even possible? Maybe it's a natural progression? What are your thoughts in terms of what the next steps are? Greg?

Yeah, that's a really interesting case. So you know, throughout the bear market, we saw some attempts at rebranding, which was kind of interesting. So instead of calling them NFTs, they were calling digital collectibles. I don't know how well that turned out or not. I think it worked out for some people. But yeah, I think, you know, for me, it kind of it's already a good brand. There's some interesting things going on, you know, brands are really pushing, you know, rebranding web3 is on chain. I'm kinda like more into that. I think that's a good kind of, you know, throwback to blockchain. And kind of just really talks, you know, kind of focuses and look, this is kind of transparent. It's on chain in Lyon, unless it's encrypted. But, you know, it runs on chain. And, you know, that's kind of the whole package, whereas web3 was kind of a bit more. Oh, well, okay. So, you know, Jack Dorsey took a shot, and then a few times, like, Okay, well, I'm worth five now, whatever. So I think, like, just, there's got to be some kind of messaging that needs to hit. And I don't know that we've got there yet. I personally still, like NFT. So I think that's kind of like, yeah, it has to be obvious, right? I like it the problem with, you know, kind of talking about FTEs. And this is where I get it is like, you're kind of leading with the technology. Right? And I think that's where you where you're always going to fail, is if you're like, you know, here's the technology, let me go find a buyer, right? It has to be like, and this is, you know, when I'm talking with partners now, I'm always, you know, focused on the user experience first, like, what does that you know, user flow look like? And then how can we, you know, have a technology that will fit that because, you know, I can make, you know, the technology do anything? So, tell me what that user experience looks like. And I think the more we do that, you know, that the more adoption will happen.

100% of grade and very well put any What about you? What are your thoughts on how we can get to greater adoption of NFTs?

I would say something obvious, but it's education, I mean, educate the people, tell the people what it is, I think an FTA is an incredible, tremendous disruptive technology with a very bad marketing. And at least as it started. So to me, the key is education is tell the people in their terms and follow their user experience. I mean, as Greg was saying, Tell, ask the people what they need and then tell them what the NFT can do for them.

Beautiful Simon, what about you?

Yeah, in my case, I totally agree with the first personal opinions, Greg, and Elisabetta, leading by use cases and use it. And building up education is very important. And obviously, that's one of the reasons we are here today, right to talk about all of this amazing advancements. But to add an element to it, I think what still bothers me is the regulation part. For example, the latest UK Yep, the latest UK rules regarding the promotion and life sciences, or produce for producers and creators of NFT people who are issuing an empty of any kind, as I heard, the law regarding this will be changed, because they realized after going into it that many companies actually left UK, they closed the offices, and they don't want to come back. So I think in terms of regulation, it is important that from one side, we have to limit the risks, and I understand this part. But at the same time, we have to have a consistent for companies, from the smallest ones, not only for the corporations, but from the smallest shop and little restaurants to be able to issue their membership tokens right to build the system around web3. And this will help a lot for mass adoption, when they're when this is not hindered by dysregulation

Yeah, absolutely agreed. And then thank you for bringing in the, the Arwood. Because we also we always need to mention it. It's always there, for better or worse. And I think it's very important that we as you say, find a middle ground where everyone is supported in taking on these technological innovations and bringing them into their businesses, whether you're a large corporation or whether you're, you know, just the shop next door. So with that, guys, we've come to the end of the show, we're going to now move into our final little rapid fire round. Just before we get there. In case you didn't hear my announcement earlier, aluminum is running a crypto crust contents contest, celebrating Bitcoin pizza day where you can design your own Bitcoin pizza box. And so do go check out on the aluminum channel. A lot of fun, and then we're going to go on to the rapid fire round. So how this is going to work. I'm going to give the name of the category Greg Le Simon You can all keep yourselves unmuted. It's rapid fire. So all I want from you is I'm going to give you one of two options, just as soon as I say tell me which option is yours. All right, so all of you're ready. All right. Okay, first one, this crypto innovation, NFTs or Bitcoin ordinals although they are quite similar Yeah. NFTs or Bitcoin ordinals.

Honestly, NFTs.

Greg Simon, what about you?

I said NFT I don't know if you heard me. Yeah.

Okay, we've got a clear winner here. See, we don't have a lot of Bitcoin ordinals fans in the house today. Project investment, GameFi or DeFi.

DeFi.

GameFi

GameFi

All right. Okay. So GameFi. And the tech that you prefer AR / AI or VR / AI. I presume they would be decentralized celebrations NFT day or Bitcoin pizza day because they compete. I thought that would be a clear winner personal preference, music and NFTs or fashion and NFTs fashion.

Fashion

Fashion.

Next Best Thing DePINs or RWAs

RWAs

RWAs

all right, Blockchain preference Ethereum or Solana

obviously Ethereum

I mean, it depends on what you mean coins at the moment.

Solana Salam. Salam is Solana even a blockchain.

I was waiting for that one. Future of web3, Metaverse or DAOs. Am I hearing Metaverse from everyone? Dallas. Okay. Digital collect, the bowls avatars or virtual real estate?

Avatar your total real estate.

Okay, innovation focus, interoperability or scalability. Simon, what about you?

Interoperability.

Crypto use case, payments or smart contracts

smart contracts, smart contracts, smart contracts.

All right, Greg. This one is for you, privacy feature Zk, zero knowledge proofs or confidential transactions? Zero. Community zero. Community engagement. This is a big question. I really want to know the answer to this one. Telegram or discord.

Tough one, telegram.

I mean telegram.

It always blows my mind that none of us are using web3 products. And we are using these products that are just breaking our brains with the amount of messages coming in like every second of the day.

I'll put a quick plug in for charm verse. Charm verse is token gated forms does way better than discord or telegram.

All right, well, guys, go check that out. Oh, investment strategy, long term huddle or short term trading.

Long term huddle easiest to now

long term for now.

And this is going to be an interesting onset market sentiment, bull market or bear market

goes back on.

I think that the bear market is one of those periods that you enjoy with your building. But if you're not actively building you need to go selling, you very much won the bid the bull market.

Everything's easy. All right.

Yeah, well, sometimes too easy, right? Like sleep is not easy. All right, guys, thank you so much for a fantastic hour. Where should folks follow you, with which social media channels are you on most of the time?

I'm on LinkedIn. But actually, I'm actually everywhere, but mainly on LinkedIn.

Yeah, I'd say that's a good coverage for me, too. But obviously, we're on Twitter. So I'm active on Twitter.

That same with me, the most active one in terms of business?

Cheers. Thank you so much and anyone is coming to meet me there.

Yes. chao Nadja, Thank you was really nice been here with you.