NFTs & Nature: Building a Regenerative Digital Blueprint

NFTs & Nature: Building a Regenerative Digital Blueprint

SPEAKERS :

Nadja Bester, AdLunam Inc Co-Founder

Francisco Benedito, Co-Founder & CEO of ClimateTrade

Aymen Soufi, Strategic Director of SunContract

Charu Sethi, CMO of Unique Network

Michelle Loke, Co-founder of Inovatyv

All right, guys, while we are waiting for some of the speakers to still come into the house, let's start with a quick sound check. If you can hear me, just drop your favorite emoji so I can see thre’s life out there. I'm not seeing positive signs. Okay, awesome, awesome. We had so many tech issues with Twitter spaces last week, so I'm really hopeful that the X spaces gods are going to be kind to us tonight, and then let's have a look. Okay, Charu, you're a speaker. Hey, how are you doing? Welcome.

Hey Nadja, good. Thank you so much. Can you hear me?

yes, perfect. Where are you dialing in from?

Dialing in from Costa Rica.

Oh, my God. Okay, so I think you probably are going to have the most exotic location out of all of us. I'm very curious to see if anyone can beat you tonight, loving to have you. Let's see who else is here. Aymen, hi.How's it going?

Oh, hello everyone. Nice to be here with you guys. I'm actually dialing in from Malta.

my co founder, actually, I think you and my co-founder, Jason are both going to I'm not sure if you are on the same panel at AIBC Malta, or are you just speaking at the same conference, but I remember seeing your name on the conference material. So very small world.

Yeah, it's great. I think I don't know if he will be with us. It's about investment in the crypto.

I think it's the same panel.

oh, great, great. A small world.

That's what you gotta love about web3, right? Awesome. Welcome. So, yeah, happy to have you, Michelle. I see your speaker as well. Hey, how's it going?

Hey, Everything's been great. I'm so excited to be here and speaking with everyone, actually.

Likewise, where are you dialing in from?

Singapore. So Singapore FinTech festival. So all the more like climate tech, sustainability, FinTech, DeFis in such a rate here right now. So yeah, really excited.

I am in Thailand, so we are practically neighbors, and very excited to be diving into this topic with you guys today. We are missing one more speaker, but we will get started in the meantime and dig in to his background when he comes so with that, let me do a quick intro. 3,2, 1, hey Web3 world. This is Nadja Bester, co-founder of AdLunam and host of the season finale of the Future of NFTs. Starting next week, we will be at DevCon, which is looking at the list of announcements in front of me. We are partnering with more than 10 events. There's so much happening at DevCon. So if you are going to be in Bangkok, Highly recommend to go to as many of these events as possible. It's such a wide variety of just whatever you're into in this industry, there's something for you, whether it's going to the zoo to visit mu Deng or whether it's talking about decentralized data. So highly recommend it. And if you are in Bangkok, come and say hello. So on to today's show. Think it's a topic that's definitely not discussed enough, and that's because, well, there's not enough hype and FOMO in this. So we're talking today about what it means the relationship between web3 and nature, the natural world, the environment, sustainability. How can we build a regenerative digital blueprint? Now, what do I mean when I say regenerative? Very often, if you've heard the term ReFi, ReFi regenerative finance, it's finance, but it's not just profit, it's also impact. And so ReFi is about creating economic models, creating, you know, financial tools that can promote sustainability. Of course, super important when we'll talk why tonight, biodiversity also something that's incredibly important, and something that we speak about more often in the web three space, which is social equity. So tonight we are expanding that conversation a little bit, talking about sustainability and how web3 technologies and tools is able to support the very important problems that we need to solve. So with me is an incredible lineup of speakers, and I'm going to not be able to do justice to the incredible backgrounds that they have and the work that they have been doing. So I'm going to ask you guys, please go ahead and introduce yourselves and tell us. Why are you interested in this topic? Why are you building in this space? What is important? What problems are important to you to solve Aymen, let's start with you. Welcome. Aymen is the strategic director of SunContract.

Awesome. I love this origin story, from investment bank to renewable energy/blockchain expert, it's a very nice arc to the story. Very excited to get more into some of this later on. In the meantime, Charu, please go ahead and tell us about yourself. So Charu is an incredibly talented professional in the space and also creatively talented professional before she came into this space, currently the CMR of Unique Network.

Thank you, Charu. I'm super excited to also talk more about your journey later on in the conversation. That is an incredible journey, and I just love how you know it went from a conversation that's very often when you speak to people, they know that these technologies are a scam, and they know that it's bad for the environment. So those are the two arguments that you will always hear. And it's almost beautiful and poetic to hear that that was your entry, kind of into the space, as well as solving that problem. Michelle, very happy to have you here, co-founder of Inovatyv so you have been in very many different industries, maritime, manufacturing, logistics, banking, and now you are using technology in order to solve problems. So please tell us what that journey looked like.

Thank you, Nadja, thank you everyone. I'm so excited to be here. And yeah, actually, I think for me, the core of everything starts with what is the real world problem of business challenges that companies face, or the world is facing, and how can I leverage transformative or emerging technologies to solve for that? I think my journey into this whole spaces and entrepreneurship and web three, really is starting from that, what about what? What problems can I solve for, and how can I use these technologies? How can I use this passion from emerging technologies and also community impact to then solve for these. So that's essentially the core of everything I do. So the work I do at innovative, the work I do for print IQ, the work I do to our Goddesses, really stems from that. With Inovatyv , I work with organizations in these traditional industries, be it banking, manufacturing, logistics, shipping, to really solve for that, and for print IQ, I try to then bring these emerging technologies, AI, Blockchain, to then look at the problem of energy efficiency and carbon reduction, and, of course, the Tara goddesses. What I'm trying to do is really, you know, empower women and the climate, climate projects. So really, just leading with curiosity, looking at real world, real challenges and problems and yeah, solving for that with technologies.

Thank you so much. I think that was just the best entry point into the first question, I loved what you said about, you know, leveraging the passion and the community impact and the curiosity and this drive to solve problems. Because I think in both if we separate these two industries, or industries for a second, if we look at the web3 space, there's a lot of passion. I mean, we are building for community impact, whether or not that is realized yet is a different question. But there's a lot of passion, there's a lot of curiosity, there's a lot of desire to create impact. And similarly, in the space of renewable energy, of low carbon, Footprints, of SDGs also, of course, there is this motivation, there's this passion, there's this curiosity to see, how can we solve these problems. So in terms of these two industries, we know that they are both needed, and we both we know that they are both experiencing a lot of problems, of course, and so an hour is not enough to discuss everything that you know would give us a completely nuanced understanding of the topic. So I think my first question is, if someone listening to this walks away with one insight today, what do you think that should be Amen? What about you? What is that one thing that someone you hope would walk away from this conversation with,

sorry, I got a problem with my mic, I would like to say that he should be aware that time is changing. So whatever he used to know, it shouldn't define what he should do. I give an example when we started the journey here with SunContract it was making to allow people to buy their own or negotiate their own electricity. So the first problem we faced is from the customer itself, because the customer itself was used to traditional model where he buys electricity from his utility company. So it was, it was for his own good, but he was resisting his own good, because he just was used to the normal, the normal way of doing business since the start of the electricity. That what I would like to everybody to keep in mind that nothing is fixed in this world. Everything changed, and everything is moving. So whether, if you want, you should like to be stuck with your own old ways that the train will not stop. That's the truth.

Yeah, love that couldn't have said it better. And I think you know you are so to the point, because when you are dealing with changing existing paradigms, existing systems. The first challenge that you come up to, are typically the people that you are trying to solve the problem for. So it's a very interesting space to be in where you know, as Michelle said, focus on solving real world problems, but then people don't understand necessarily, that these solutions are solutions, or that the problems are even problems. So on that note, very quickly, interject here, Francisco, I see you're on and your speaker, welcome. Very happy to have you. We'd love a quick introduction from you. So Francisco is the co-founder and CEO of ClimateTrade.

Thank you so much, Nadja for the invitation. Apologize, because in Spain is like they changed the time today and it was 3pm CET, so centrally said time, and I thought we had 45 minutes still. So anyways, sorry for that. Well, my name is Francisco Benedito the CEO and co-founder of ClimateTrade and Climate Coin. So we've been working on the blockchain space for more than seven years, in the climate tech using Blockchain before, I was a banker for 15 years, and I was also in the blockchain part, together with other duties in the one of the leading banks in technology worldwide, in Spain. So from there, I moved to blockchain, to climate, and we created the largest database of carbon credits, the largest marketplace, and the first marketplace worldwide of carbon credits, climate trade. So today, we work with big corporations around the world providing carbon credits, providing renewal certificates for the scope two and also other type of climate assets, like biodiversity, plastics and other things. And basically what we help is to provide an avenue of climate assets to the resellers, let's say banks, or directly to the corporations, but also individuals that want to calculate the carbon footprint and to compensate the carbon footprint, as for example, we do with Santander credit card. So you pay with a credit card, you know, the CO two of everything you purchase, and you can decide to neutralize it. So, yeah, that's basically what we do.

Well, very happy to have you here. And I feel like we should create the future of NFTs Bingo, because this, I believe, is the first time, we've had two former bankers on here that are now both in the climate tech industry or the renewable space. So that's awesome. So Francisco, I want to ask you the same question then that I asked. I mean, if someone is listening to this conversation and they they take away only one insight, what do you think that should be?

All right. Awesome. So, Michelle, what about you? What is the one thing, if someone walked away from this conversation right now, what should they take away?

Um, so I would always start with why and in different layers, right? Why blockchain? Why NFTs or why are you even doing what you're doing. The big question, why is the genesis of everything? And it always I mean, as I mentioned earlier, I go back to core. What is this? The problem I'm solving for. Why? Why NFTs? Why blockchain? As with any technologies enabler, echoing what Francisco has also just mentioned, technology is always an enabler. Technology is there to help solve for it. And yeah, so NFT or blockchain, there are really tools that can empower people, right? You can build communities. Can drive social change. You can, you know, story tell. You can make things tangible. And there's so many communities out there that already doing all this work. And you can always go and find these, these communities out there, or, you know, look at the projects are doing what they're doing, but always start with why. And that makes it a lot more foundational. It makes it more long lasting. It deepens engagement. It creates a much more useful sort of outcome, rather than just, you know, building for the sake of building, doing things for sake of cloud or, you know, the noise, it's really just going back to basics of why.

I think if we asked ourselves, why more often, there wouldn't be nearly as many projects. So for better or worse, yes, we probably should be asking that a lot more, at least to see adoption. Charu, what about you? What is, what do you think is the single thing that someone should walk away with if they leave this conversation?

I think there is sure. So from my perspective, we are in the middle of, as a lot of people would say, a perfect storm where the climate impact and the changes that we are seeing, the crisis is not something for the future. It's almost an emergency. It's happening now, very visible and very tangible, and at the same time, so there is a massive shift in the way societies and communities are communicating, the digital interactions, the consumer behavior. So those two forces, I think, are driving a lot of change in how the companies will shift their branding, their communication, their revenue models as well. So at the core of it, to align businesses to climate impact, positive initiatives, transparency and traceability are the top requirements for businesses, and blockchain perfectly addresses for that. So if you are concerned about, if you are running a business, doesn't matter web two or web three, or are concerned and are concerned about the impact of climate, you will find there is the. Much innovation in the space that you will find, something, a project, a team or an individual that will be ready to help you with cool ideas. So it's about opening up your mind to this.

Awesome thank you all so much. I think you know, just to recap what everyone touched on as Aymen was saying time is changing because you don't know something doesn't mean that there's nothing to know it. I think this, what is it the Johari Window, if you don't know what you don't know. And I think that is an incredibly important point to make, is there is as far was saying, there's so much innovation happening out there, whether or not you know about it. But I think also that if we touch on the problems, as Charu said, you know, we are, at the moment, in this perfect storm. There is a climate crisis, whether or not you know you agree with it, whether or not you believe it, I think there's enough people and enough experiences out there for us to validate that. And so if we talk about solving problems, as Michelle so beautifully touched on why it's important to ask why we are doing this, why are we building this? Then it becomes clear that the solutions, as Charu said, transparency, traceability, as Francisco said, It is the perfect enabler for climate tech, for these large institutions to move carbon credits and so many other things around. Then it becomes clear that, yes, it is a fantastic solution. But now if we come to the reality I want to know, then, you know, in web3, we so often talk about, it's still early. There's time, you know, build it and they will come. But if we look at the climate crisis, we might not have time to build it and they'll come. So my question then is, where are we on the scale between innovation and adoption when it comes to the sustainable space? Charu, maybe we start with you. Oh, Francisco, if you want to go first, please go ahead.

No worries.

Thank you Charu. Francisco, we'd love to have your perspective. How close do you think we are to getting the adoption that we need in order to solve the real problems that solve that need solving very, very soon?

Well, I wish I could tell you that we are close to that, but the reality is that our solutions normally are nice to nice to have more than must have. So the companies have a lot of priorities before the climate crisis, and in most of the cases, and with my experience of more than seven years trying to push and push and push new solutions, and we've been like, innovating in the space, like, I can tell you, like, four or five innovations that very disruptive in the climate space, especially in the carbon market. So it's been, like, very difficult to get into companies and get traction, because they are just not there yet, right? And I think regulation has a lot of to say, a lot to say, and the solutions that are like traction in battery are the ones that are more aligned with the regulation, right? So I think that progressively, and especially in Europe, the regulation in the climate space is more advanced. So as long as your solution is closer to that, you have more chances to succeed. In terms of the my case, the voluntary market, I had to find very innovative ways to get to work with these companies and try to do things in parallel that could support my innovation process, right? Or the innovation process No, because, if not, you die in the process, right? So it's not easy, it's not the decided scenario, but is how it is. And I think that, I mean, there are multiple applications in the web3 space, and that it could be supported by these companies, but the end is like POCs, small POCs, that that doesn't give you for enough money to run a converter to grow and so you have to work on, in my case, always is like thinking, trying to think big as much as possible. So I've been trying to, we've been working on the B2B side, trying to do a whole sales in parallel, building solutions like our APIs and, you know, the things we did, because I think that the market is right there, but still not getting the traction that that it needs, not so maybe in five years will be the completely different right?

Thank you, Francisco. And you know you're mentioning the POCs. I've had experience with this myself in the web3 space, working with multiple projects that use decentralization and blockchain to address environmental problems. And it's unfortunately always come to the same point. It's a POC, whatever government agency is involved, they don't really support beyond that POC, and that's very unfortunate, because there's so many incredible innovations that are coming forward, and it really just needs support from these agencies that are a force from nature, if they're involved or involved, or governments, but thankfully, we do, of course, have these initiatives in the web3 space as well. And I think in future, we might see more support for these kind of initiatives. So I mean, I'm curious then, because you said earlier that initially you faced a lot of challenges from consumers. Now, I know over the years, there's been a number of projects in the renewable energy space in. Uh, using Blockchain. So how, what was that journey like when you talk about, you know, initially it was a challenge to kind of get people to onboard. Has that changed? And why is that?

yeah, couldn't agree more. I think the more invisible our technologies and our industry becomes, in terms of how much people need to understand it in order to adopt it, will be so much better off. And then in terms of, you know, what you said about web3 being akin to the early 90s internet, I think it's very easy to forget how early it is, because we know what the solutions are, and we want the solutions, you know, applicable today, but it is very early. And, I mean, not a lot of people were on the on the early 90s Internet, and sometimes it was great and sometimes it was not so great. And I think we're experiencing something similar. But Michelle,

exactly, just for this. Is this 80s, that's exactly the same thing, but it on. It's not on the same scale, because the learning curve now is more steep, more exponential. So whatever happened with the internet for the first 10 years, with now, with the blockchain, is happening in one year. That's the difference between scales here.

Absolutely. Yes. No. Thank you for adding that point. I mean, it's also, I think, generally speaking, technology is accelerating at such a pace that if you go to sleep and you wake up the morning, this the next morning, there's some shocking new leap or announcement that's been made. Michelle, so in terms of, you know, I'm going to bring it back to the why? Because, I think, obviously this is something that we all know is not spoken about enough, but you've certainly highlighted that tonight. When we talk about adoption, we all want adoption. I mean, it's, it's the Holy Grail, right? Like, sometimes it feels like one of those buzz words where we, we don't even stop and think anymore about what that means and what that would actually look like. But why? Why do we want adoption? What? What is? What is so important about adoption that we need it? What is your what are your thoughts on this whole phenomenon of adoption being the thing that we seek, but then we don't really seek it, but we don't really build for solutions that would, you know, encourage adoption.

That's a really interesting question. And maybe I'll start off acknowledging the fact that maybe it'll come from the B2B angle, because that's where I kind of sit in a lot, and adoption in B2B is very different from the adoption from B2C, right with B2B, the overarching or the biggest priority is always revenue commercialization. Does this actually have customers only to pay for it? Or rather, does a solution our customers willing to pay for it, or does this solution allow me to reduce my cost? Or does this bring in other forms of sort of profitability for the business? And that way that drives adoption for B2B. On the flip side, for B2C adoption might look a lot different in terms of a lot more say users or community building, things like that. The metrics are very different that way. And coming back to the why, and I'll talk a bit more about the B2B side, adoption can look like, um, for example. Just giving example, right, um, let's say Nestle. They started out this blockchain project in collaboration open X, launching the coffee traceability. And the whole reason for that project was to really allow for the consumers to understand the journey of the coffee, where the coffee comes from, providing that transparency on sourcing practices, promoting ethical consumption, and the whole why behind it was to really build that trust with the consumers and to really bring out that transparency for the consumers, and that was the wider the side of it. Now if I go into, let's say, the example of um Anheuser Bush, right? They have the blockchain for supply chain and sustainability, and they implemented that to again improve the transparency of the supply chains, um, especially for the raw materials. And if you go down to the why was to really allow for the consumers to know where, where their say, the raw materials came from, to track the raw materials and, you know, promote the sustainable practices in their whole supply chain. And this is a lot for, like, the brand building, and a lot for the stakeholders, because that's the priority, and that's how I see the why is, why is the likes of Ford, or the likes of, you know, Walmart, or the likes of all these big companies, why are they doing what they doing? And it's really also great to see that, you know, the likes of like Maersk, IBM Ford, starting with this internally and, you know, incorporating these technologies for the internal processes and internal use cases and finding commercial models for it. Of course, it makes it a lot more easier when it's championed or when it's started by the bigger companies, because one, of course, he has the funds, they have the network, they have existing customers, so it's a lot more easier for them. But it also gives a blueprint for the ecosystem that. Hey, it's something that can be done. It's really about, of course, for like startups or SMEs to really find a commercial model that fits and allows them to scale in this whole space.

Thank you, Michelle building on Michelle's answer, Charu, you mentioned earlier about Gen Z and the fact that Gen Z very often, I mean, as you say, the statistics back this up, very often seek out more transparent, more sort of meaning building companies, and yet, we don't see a lot of adoption from Gen Z when it comes to decentralized technologies. Now, I think, as Michelle touched on, you know, there's the examples that that you mentioned, for example, Nestle, being able to kind of see what the what the supply chain is of the coffee that you are drinking. That, of course, is something that is valued and prized by someone who already appreciates that there's, let's say, a not so good way of doing things, and that there are some companies out there doing things differently. But how do we go from Gen Z understanding that there are certain brands that they are able to support, because these brands are aligned with their values to now entering a tech space like the one in web three, where suddenly everything becomes confusing and not super on brand when it comes to sustainability, necessarily.

Yeah, I think, well, there is no short answer to it, but it is, I would start by saying that it is on the brands the web2 brands that actually interact with consumers, that actually have products, claim to have sustainable products, claim to have sustainable practices. For them to work with technology partners like us, all of us here on the call and find a way that is a direct impact to their business outcomes. Now that's a very high level statement, but to make it very specific, I would like to highlight the ESPR regulation by the European Communication Commission. And that, I think, is something very concrete now, and that's where that the idea of whole digital product passport comes into play. So the quick summary, a quick introduction about what ESPR regulation is, it is, and I'm sure other speakers on the call may know better about this. Are not in the regulation space, but I approach it from the NFTs point of view. So it is about defining very clear product guidelines on what a clean product, a sustainable product means and those guidelines when implemented. Now, implementation is a whole, whole separate beast, right? But it is a great start to be able to define very specific criteria that defines sustainable product or uses less energy lasts longer, can be repaired, can be recycled, and all of that. And any product, any company that abides by this or claims that their product is ESPR kind of certified or aligns with all the criteria, can easily leverage newer technologies, from NFTs to blockchains to distributed ledgers to be able to prove that they check all the boxes and their product checks all the boxes, and that's something that we are enabling through enhanced NFT metadata standards. One of the things that is at the core of our value prop is advanced NFTs. That means that you can embed through a lot of metadata into the NFTs, through nested NFT capabilities, dynamic NFT capabilities, link it to link your NFT collections to APIs that hold all the information. And based on that, your NFT will, it will evolve and grow. So think of the NFT as a digital product passport that is linked to the information or API data source APIs to data sources that has product information. So now you have a digital representation of the real product that, in a very transparent way, shows how this project align a product aligns with the key criteria of ESPR regulation, so that infrastructure exists now, thanks to builders like. All of us now, how do you really use it? So I think now coming back to the point of Gen Z and the communication with them, the other as I said, The Perfect Storm, the cultural shift that's happening with the way Gen Z consumes products, communicates online. They are all about they like the idea of communities. They like the idea of micro influencers. They like the idea of being a part of a community that aligns with their way of thinking, that aligns with their value system. And if brands are a part of those communities in a transparent way, they are very likely to establish a strong loyalty bond, or an emotional bond with that brand. Now, how do we implement these fuzzy objectives around emotional loyalty through technologies like NFTs and aligned with ESPR regulations. So I think there is definitely a clear path which kind of merges the shifting consumer behavior around Gen Z, their focus on clear communication by the brands. So that's it's one thing to just make that one time purchase, knowing the product is compliant, but it's a totally another thing to remain and be connected with the brand and constantly receive information on the sustainable practices, or constantly receive updates about their own product as to how much more it's adding to carbon credits, because the longer they use or if they recycle it, so that constant communication opportunity that a digital twin of your product, or a digital product passport that is enabled through NFTs, is a strong connection point between brands and consumers, an ongoing connection, point that didn't exist before. I mean, before the situation was you buy a product because maybe you believe in the sustainable business practices of that company, and that's it. But what happens after that is no communication now NFTs with information with evolving metadata, give that direct communication channel or enable that direct communication challenge channel about sustainable practices between the brands and the consumers. A lot of times, the products that wholesalers sell to consumers brands have no connection with those end users. A digital product passport or NFT enabled, kind of product passport now gives direct access to brands and companies to their consumers, even though wholesalers were in between. So I think there are obvious technologies available. It is, what it will need, is a visionary mindset that executes, sitting in a decision making power in Web, two brands like that. Because obviously these, these ecosystems, technologies, communities. Mindset is available. It's just about bringing it together. And once that starts to happen, I think we will see, we will see more adoption.

Thank you, Tara. I wish we had another hour to discuss this and hopefully get to some pointers that we can just send over to those web two decision makers, some short clips so they can change their minds, because you certainly changed mine, not that it needed to be changed. So we've come to almost the end of the show, which is really unfortunate, because there's so much more that I would love to get into. So I mean, this is not the most fair question to ask you this a few minutes before the end, but this just occurred to me that I think this is a super important question, and since you have a lot of experience in tokenomics, we've obviously seen that when it comes to tokenomics and then environmentally, first projects, there's a bit of an issue between the two. I mean, it's one goes in this direction and the other one in the other direction. So how does one craft tokenomics That's both, you know, in step and in vogue with what is happening in the web three space, but simultaneously ensure that the that the project is sustainable for the long term beyond, as you said, these early adopters that are web3, but they're not the end client.

Oh, there's a third variable to the equation now, which is regulations. Now Mika. Mika is started to be implemented, so it needs to be balanced in those three points, and regulation is the most challenging part of it. So first of all. Um, it's, it's many, often I saw project that trying to fit in circles in squares, so they want to implement NFTs and blockchain and those fancy words in project that do not intrinsically in need for them. So this is the first, the first thing not to do for these new, new projects, once, once, you have to first ask your question, the question, what problem am I solving? It's a classical question for every any startup now. But after this question, does NFT or blockchain or whatever helps me achieve this, or not, or to and to what extent. So this is, I give you the example here. It's like, it's very recent example, which with our NFT platform. So other this, other than the peer to peer model, as I said, we face a little bit of challenge in the in the adoption. So how? But we address this in a, in a, in a in a creative way. How? So we just saw that a lot of people wish they own solar panels on their roofs, but they don't own roofs, because they most of the people lives in apartment now. So how can we address this? So how can we use this in our advantage? That's why we found the solution in tokenizing farms, like farms of solar panels, farms into NFTs, and allows these people living in in apartment to own the NFTs and either earn from it or consume whatever generated from the underlying solar panel. They can consume it in their in their houses. So this is an example of how we created a business model. And obviously the NFT itself have stocky numbers because they generate revenue, and the revenue is an SNC token, and it should be not inflating and deflating equilibrium, so. But the idea is, here is start from the real and then look, and then look for the tool that you to that will help you achieve this goal, and not just by, okay, I want this technology. I want to create a project around this technology. Let's it's just simply does not go this way, and it's not sustainable this way. That's my point of view about this.

Thank you, Francisco. We have a very limited amount of time left, and this is, of course, a heavy topic in and of itself. Very, very quickly. What are your thoughts on regulation? Is it a yay? Is it a nay? Is it helping? Is it hurting? What is the situation inside of Europe and also outside of Europe?

Well, as I said before, I think the regulation is moving pretty fast, both blockchain space and climate space in Europe, especially. So I think that we have a good environment to build in the blockchain space, I mean, in the climate space, we require, let's say more doing, doing a smaller the place where the companies can move right in terms of, okay, you need to report, but let's see what you report. You have done something or not, so they can put more money in the table. Yesterday was a, I was in a big event in in Madrid regarding climate, and I'm like, Okay, what do you think about the company? Say, Okay, they are doing things, but they are doing a lot of marketing. No, I don't want to say green washing, but I what they need is to have regulations that really make them put more money in the table. Because what we need is, again, the corporations to support more the solutions, the transformation, and at the end is like this, this is a matter of the polluters to pay it no. So at the end is like the solutions have to come also with that money and then we need regulation, because what we saw is that voluntarily is not happening, right? So, yeah, I think that regulation, like, for example, in Spain with renewable energy or with certificates of energy saving, which is mandatory, everyone is buying it. Or biofuels in Europe right now, everyone is going to buy biofuels because they have to. So same thing for carbon credits, for other things that can incentivize new projects to be created, so decarbonizing the planet. And that's we need regulation. But I think this is speeding up, right?

Thank you everyone.

Thank you everyone.

Thank you Everyone. Enjoy your day.